ROPS changes for 2016

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Taff Striker
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby Taff Striker » Tue Oct 27, 2015 12:42 pm

Yes, sorry - I realised my mistake when I re-read my post :oops:

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adithorp
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby adithorp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:19 pm

Forgive the stupid question but for the un-initiated how does a kit fit into any of those categories?

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MattD
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby MattD » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:27 pm

jeffw wrote:You would think so due to equivalance, I asked the MSA this exact question and their response was
Forward facing stays would only be permitted for a vehicle in this category if the ROPS is certified by the manufacturer. If this is to be considered the manufacturer should contact the Technical Department for advice on the certification procedure.

OK I'll air my thoughts in public & diss my own product at the same time :lol:

With my SSC Ltd hat on, I emailed Micheal at the MSA (who I know personally as he competes on FDMC events), got a nice reply with a straightforward interpretation of the section K blue book rules, and the alternative full-on MSA ROPS certification forms for MIRA load simulation & static load testing.

It wont be a cheap game... design a ROPS, simulate loads in CAD.... pay the MSA fee... submit the calcs to MIRA, pay their fee.. and if I'm lucky MIRA approve the paperwork. If MIRA decide to do static load tests... build a chassis with the ROPS on it... submit it to MIRA, pay their fee... MIRA to make the billet load stamp, contoured to fit the hoop shape, pay the fee.... test it all on a static load rig.... and if it passes GREAT, if not go back & start again, paying the fees again.
And if I'm really serious.... got to do it twice anyway... once for the "up to 2lt" rear hoops/stays, and again for the "over 2ltr"/race full cage.

So.... its typical motorsport and all a question of cash & how committed I am as a manufacturer, and how big the current or potential order book might be for MSA competing kits. For SSC ltd/me personally looking to sort out Stylus owners old, new & hopefully future.... its not worth the ££ right now, I can't justify it.
So that leaves SSC with the section K compliance route & the 30 degree rear stay locating problem. Yes its do-able, but will leave the owner with an unsightly design, 2" holes in the rear bodywork, and a leaky boot. Can't say I'd want that on my weekend road-rocket & occasional sprint/hillclimb car.
If its a competiton car.... just got to get on with it & don't care what it looks like.

Either way its still not going to give the MSA a FIA harmonised ROPS design for this particular road-going specialist production car, which I believe was/is the reasoning for the 2016 changes. Maybe other kit manufacturers are selling 100s of cars, feel differently, and are sufficiently flush to justify it all.

Cheers
Matt

jeffw
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby jeffw » Tue Oct 27, 2015 1:56 pm

adithorp wrote:Forgive the stupid question but for the un-initiated how does a kit fit into any of those categories?


It dawns in me that this is an excellent point....

This is a typical sprint regs

Category A: Road-Going Series / Specialist Production Cars
(Excluding Kit Type Cars & Replicas in Appendix 1)
Class 1 Standard Cars (Appendix 2) up to 1600cc, 2wd list 1A tyres only
2 Standard Cars (Appendix 2) 1601 to 2000cc, 2wd list 1A tyres only

Appendix 2 – Standard Cars are those defined by Road Going Series Production in MSA Blue Book
(S11.1.1) but restricted to two wheel drive using list 1A tyres. Cars are to be to manufacturers original
specification, with modifications limited to safety items (see applicable sections of S10), along with
brake pad material, replacement wheels and aftermarket exhausts (not manifold), no other
modifications (body, brakes, suspension, transmission or engine etc.) will be permitted (S10.10
modified).
Category A: Road-Going Series / Specialist Production Cars
(Excluding Kit Type Cars & Replicas in Appendix 1)
Class 3 Up to 1400cc - 2WD only, list 1A or 1B tyres
4 Over 1400 to 2000cc - 2WD only, list 1A or 1B tyres
5 Over 2000 - 2WD only, list 1A or 1B tyres
6 4 Wheel Drive - all engine capacities, list 1A or 1B tyres

Category A: Road Going Kit Type and Replica Cars (Appendix 1)
Class 7 Up to 1700cc Excluding motor cycle engine cars, list1A or 1B tyres
8 Over 1700cc Including motor cycle engine cars of any capacity,
list 1A or 1B tyres
Appendix 1 – Caterham, Westfield, Sylva, Fisher & Lotus 7, Elise, Exige and 340R Vauxhall 220, XBow
and similar types / derivatives of any of these cars.

Category B: Modified Series / Specialist Production Cars
(Excluding Motor Cycle Engine Cars)
Class 9 Up to 1400cc
Class 10 Over 1400cc to 2000cc
Class 11 Over 2000cc

Category C: Sports Libre Cars
Class 12 Up to 1800cc (Motor cycle engine cars up to 1100cc)
Class 13 Over 1800cc (Motor cycle engine cars over 1100cc)

Category D: Racing Cars
Class 14 Up to 1100cc
Class 15 Over 1100cc

All vehicles must comply with MSA safety regulations as per 2015 MSA Yearbook section J5.1 to
J5.20.13 and sections S10 to S15.2.1 being specific regulations for Sprints and Hillclimbs, unless
modified [next section] and the relevant sections of K asreferred to in section S. Competition Car Log
Books will be required for all Hillclimb and Sprint cars unless the car is currently taxed and insured for
use on the public highway and competing at the event in a road going class (S9.1.7).
Cars using forced induction will be classified as having an engine capacity increase of
40%; those using diesel fuel a reduction of 30% (e.g. a 2000cc turbo diesel will be
considered to be the equivalent of 1960cc normally aspirated petrol engine) and a rotary
engine an increase of 50%.

And these are the new rules

Date of implementation: 1 January 2016
10.1.2.
Road-Going Series Production, K.1.6.1 or K.1.6.2
recommended.
1 0 .1 . 3 .
Road-Going Specialist Production,
Modified Series
Production Cars and Modified Specialist Production Cars must
comply with K.1.6.1 or K.1.6.2.
Reason:
Increased safety on the basis of permitted
modifications

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adithorp
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby adithorp » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:26 pm

So what class are you all competeing in and which do the new regs apply to?

From my (un-informed) perspective... kit's are A7/A8. Can't be class B, as before it can be modified series/specialist, they'd have to be standard specialist/series production and can't be that as there aren't 20 identical built in any 12mth period. The new reg' as Jeff's quoted it, applies to class B :?:

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David
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby David » Tue Oct 27, 2015 5:56 pm

IIRC, it has to be 20 identical chassis.

When I wanted to do a season or two in ModSpecProd (Class B9), I simply got a (truthful) letter from Raw.
Scrute always accepted it without question.

HTH

David
Se7en Pervert -- by definition; I don't drive a Caterham

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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby jeffw » Tue Oct 27, 2015 6:06 pm

I doubt there has been 20 Phoenix a year ....ever?


Road Going Kit Type and Replica Cars is not defined by the MSA so I've always assumed we would be categorised as Specialised Production Cars (which the new regs apply too). I've email the MSA Technical for confirmation or otherwise...

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dopdog
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby dopdog » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:07 pm

it all depended where i went with the fury. Some clubs would let me run in

Category B: Modified Series / Specialist Production Cars
(Excluding Motor Cycle Engine Cars) and some would not say excluding motor cycle engines. I was never asked to prove if 20 cars had been made in a year but always got kicked out of this class due to other mod prod people moaning they had no chance with my bike engine car and thus always ended up in
Category C: Sports Libre Cars
Class 12 Up to 1800cc (Motor cycle engine cars up to 1100cc) ON my own! no fun

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David
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby David » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:40 pm

Chris and I single- (or perhaps double-) handedly got BECs banned from ModSpecProd <1400cc in most south east clubs. The Davrian Imp drivers seemed irritated to be beaten by ten seconds or more and decided that a Striker-Busa was not the "proper thing".
Mind you, we didn't have much fun either -- no competition, and hassle with the CoC at Lydden who, on two occasions, tried to exclude us (until asked on what grounds -- silence).

Didn't matter though, after we were banished to the shady world of Sports Libre, the competition still wasn't tight -- and frequently we won there too.

T'was a blessed relief to return to road-going -- which is where we would like to stay.
Last edited by David on Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Se7en Pervert -- by definition; I don't drive a Caterham

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David
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Re: ROPS changes for 2016

Postby David » Tue Oct 27, 2015 9:43 pm

jeffw wrote:I doubt there has been 20 Phoenix a year ....ever?



But . . . . you may find it is just a Striker chassis with extra bits welded on. Defo twenty per year of those ;)
Se7en Pervert -- by definition; I don't drive a Caterham


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